HOW DOES THE STAGE MANAGER/SHOW CALLER DELIVER A GREAT SHOW?

Hello, production world, this is Les Goldberg, and welcome to The Road Ahead. The Road Ahead podcast is courtesy of LMG with your host Les Goldberg. Welcome to the Road Ahead. Today I have three amazing guests. I have Miles Capper, I have Rob Pushkin and Mimi Apfel. Hello everyone. And today we're going to talk about the stage manager, the show caller. Welcome to the show. Nice to be here. Here. So we're going to go right to Miles and ask the question are you a show caller or a stage manager. What do you like to be referred to? And maybe you can define for the audience what the difference is if there is a difference. Actually I do think there is a difference, although I think most clients could care less. I think show caller is what you what you expect it to be someone that comes in. They do the tests, they rehearse the crew, they rehearse the client and ultimately deliver a seamless show. But a show caller, I don't believe as a stage manager, and I'm going to give Mimi and Rob a shot at this because I believe their equity. And if you really want to get technical, a stage manager show calling is just one part of what they do, and I'll let them talk about the differences. What is what, Mimi, why don't you give us your opinion? Are you a stage manager, a show caller? Both. What is your thought? I'd say both. I know in British equity they call them all show callers. And. But in Actors Equity here in the United States, we are stage managers. I think we manage the whole stage. I think we manage everything about the the production. So it's not just that we're just calling a show and just calling cuz we're actually managing all the people and all the other departments that, especially in theater, where you do a lot more of the management of rehearsals and things like that. So. So, Rob, are you a show caller or are you a stage manager, which which is an acronym that really suits you? Well, I prefer stage manager. It's changed certainly over the years. Currently, I'm more of a show caller or show director, which is a term that's used a lot too. And my current job description is more of organizing and coordinating all the elements of a production and transforming it into an understandable flow of some nature for the crew to be able to execute their cues. So. So you run the show, so to speak. I run the show so, so, so if I wanted to get in this business. Rob and and how many years have you been doing this? I started in the theater back in the late 70s and switched over to corporate only about 84, 85. Gotcha. So so you've got lots of experience. What would you recommend to someone about getting in the business? And maybe you could tell us how you ended up in the business? Well, I ended up in the business in in the simplest way. I came out as a lighting designer, out of school with a mass communications degree, and ended up stage managing from there, got my equity card, was doing children's theater and a little off off Broadway, and I got a call from a producer director friend of mine who said he's doing a industrial. And I said, what's an industrial? He said, well, it's a show, but it's for a client like the phone company. I said, oh, are you going to have dancing phones? And he goes, yes. So he asked me if I could come down, tape out of floor. These were the days where there was everything was talent driven as opposed to technology driven. But I remember I was making $112 doing tire, which is children's theater equity contract. And they said, well, we need you to stage manage this show. How much money do you want? And I was bold. I said, well, this is for the phone company, I want $300. And they said, okay, no problem. And at the end of the week when the paychecks came, I had $2,100. I didn't know from day rates, I knew from weekly rates. So it was like I wanted $300 a week. I got $300 a day and a bell went off. And I just said, you know, with my mass communications background and my media background. This seems to be the natural calling for me. And, you know, 40 some odd years later, still there. So, so, Mimi, did you work with the phone company to get in the business, like Rob or how did you get in this business? Similarly, I did theater. I did theater in high school, and in college I was a stage manager. In college I continued on. I did regional theater all around the country, moved to New York, went to Radio City Music Hall, worked there for about 15, 20 years and then got into corporate. So I'm even later into the corporate. I was into the corporate in the 90s is when I started, but also similarly, it was a pharmaceutical that wanted a theatrical stage manager because they were doing a theater production. It was a full out original musical for a drug for OCD. It was great. We had turned table. Those were the days. So miles. Miles, did you get in this business from the theater? No, I got in. I graduated from college as an English teacher and got a job immediately at the local PBS affiliate, and I worked my way up. Or, as I like to say, Peter principled my way up to that of director. So I left calling cameras. But after three years, I moved to LA and I didn't want to pursue video. And through a friend he said, well, I've got a I know a producer that works for IBM. He's an outside producer and he does their big think pieces, and they're big candids pieces on slides. And I thought, well, what could that possibly be? I mean, that's nothing. I come from television. So I started all over again as a PA, and I wound up mounting a lot of slides in West Mountain number two. For those of you who remember what those were, and on a show in Hawaii for IBM, I picked up a pair of headsets that was meant for the client, but he never wore them. And I heard this guy, you know, stand by electric six with motion picture this, that every time he said go, something happened. I thought, you know what? This is really cool. And when it was all over, I went up to him and I said, I want to do what you do. And that was their parent. And he took me under his wing for four years. I learned the ropes from backstage all the way to front of house and took off from there. You know what's interesting? What you all do is essentially make magic. You all, you all take all the pieces of the puzzle, and if you call the right verbal skills, I would say you're calling the audibles. Then. Then the show happens. So can you give me a time when you were calling a show and something happened, you know, that either added to the magical moment or changed the magical moment. So to give people, the audience, the understanding of of what the experience was like and how you dealt with it, we often have presenters who are either coming from another room or coming from another venue, and they come in late or they don't come at all, and you have to rearrange the entire show on the fly. And those are not unusual because they happen all the time. Those were some of the things that we've, we've, we've all handled, I know. So it's pretty common to have to move the schedule and kind of be a moving target and adjust based on the circumstances of the show. Absolutely. Okay, Miles, can you tell me an unusual I mean, I've personally been in many ballrooms with you, so I can remember when there was a snake handler in a ballroom with you. We're the. We're the tongue of the snake kissed. The lens of the camera, and the audience scream. Also, the the golden retriever that took a little bit more face time with the audience than was planned, but by far the most unusual thing that ever happened to me was I stage managed the Ted Talks before they went to a broadcast model, and with the Ted Talks you had some, in some cases, no rehearsal. So there was one Ted Talk in particular. It was in 2012. I'll never forget this as long as I live. And the guy came on stage and it was a very funny guy in Israeli. And he said, my, my best friend bet me that I, that I would never be able to do a Ted Talk, but here I am. He started with a very funny opening video, and his the premise of his talk was about the group of people who's always smarter than the individual, and he was going to go out to prove this. So after a few graphics, I'm sitting there and I'm, you know, I'm I've got my show flow. I know what's coming up next. What's coming up next is we switch to preset three, which allows everybody to bring out their cell phone and vote, and everybody can see the results on the screen above the guy. And I'm sitting there and all of a sudden I hear from our TD, Pete Bender, who is the most lovely, gentle giant you'd ever meet. In his very calm, cool, collected voice on headsets, says Miles, there's going to be an ox entering with his trainer from up left. And about a minute. And sure enough, a minute later, a 2,000 pound ox entered from up left because that's what they were. That's what the phones were all about. They were all trying to figure out how much he weighed. And by having 2000 people in the audience bring out their phones and guess what the ox came in at? They were all right collectively, like within 2 pounds. The weirdest thing in the world. Rob, can you top the ox? I just want to know. Oh, I see something unusual. That was the element of surprise. Well, there. Oh, my philosophy has always been punt on first down. So, you know, you just go with the flow. But I had a sad experience where just before the opening session, the chairman and CEO sadly passed away and we had to literally restructure three days of shows and completely, you know, it changed the entire sessions, the entire creative. And that was a sad experience. But everyone worked together, followed our lead, and we went forward. You know, there's an airplane pilot term called situational awareness. It seems like to be successful as a stage manager, you really have to have good situational awareness. You have to be able to see what's happening and how the reactions of the people. And if the audience are reacting and and you kind of have to make sure all the little pieces line up. So, so, Miles, how do you know when you're doing a good job? Well, one one of the indicators is if you look at your watch and it's an hour later than you thought, you know that things have gone pretty damn well, so there isn't any reason for them to continue. I do believe, you know, let's let's face it, I think a lot of us are in this business because we love the idea of walking into a ballroom. Trusses are still going up. Maybe you hear pink noise or whatever it is, and the challenge of theoretically taking anywhere from 6 to 22 people on a crew and pulling them all together. So it all looks like we've been doing this every day for the last six months. Tomorrow is really where I think a lot of us enjoy enjoy being what we do. Yes, it's crazy pressure, but the high is amazing when you know the crew is in sync with you and it's telling in some bizarre ways. As an example, you know, you're on stage, you finish your your presentation, you say, thank you very much. And instead of saying, and now I'd like to introduce Rob Pushkin, you just walk off the stage and it's like, and everybody's looking. Well, at that point you pick up the Vogue and say, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome the vice president of LMG, Rob Pushkin. And there's applause and the audio guy knows to do the play on. And the graphics people know to go to his graphic. And it just happens because of your trust in the crew and their trust in you. Wow. Good answer. Good answer. I was going to say I've. I've probably got 5000 show days in my life before I stopped actually touching equipment. And and so, you know, Mimi. Do you ever have to a show when you've done it? Do you ever have a client come up to you and say, good job, or you did an awesome or or is that is that common or not common? And whether that's coming from the end client or it's coming from the production team, you know, is it hard to get accolades because you're basically directing so many other people? No, I'd say that happens quite often. I think quite often at the end of a show, I'll give a big hug to my producer who's sitting next to me, or and the lighting and the sound guy and or gal, and go backstage and say hi to everyone. And often, you know, if if it's a good show and the client is a nice person, they will also come and thank me because they realize what I have done, what we have, what we do, makes it happen. Well, I like that making it happen. Think so Rob, is it common that you do you have a self-awareness of whether you're doing a good job? Or is it you're so lost in the moment because you're driving that someone has to come over you and say, hey, Rob, good job. Or is that just normal? That's pretty much normal. I mean, I know once I get locked in and I'm in a zone and there's a rhythm going on, it just flows. It's, you know, everything is flying together. And I mean, it's very nice when somebody comes over and says, thank you, I appreciate it. For me, it's the crew. When I get a crew guy that comes over, that maybe it's the first time I'm working with him and comes over and says, wow, you know, you call a good show, that means more to me than pretty much anything else because, you know, without him doing his job, you know, I'm just spewing out words. So that's that's what's important to me. Being complemented by your peers is ultimately probably the highest measure, because those are the people that that you work with, and they're sometimes the toughest on you. Let me which gears here and in our new world post-COVID, we've had to deal with virtual events. And I'm curious whether or not I'm throwing this to Miles. Miles, have you had to work on either a virtual event or had any experience where you're calling a virtual event? Is this something you've had to do yet or not, or I don't know, I'm I'm gnawing on the edges as we speak. I've been approached by 2 or 3 production companies, and I mean, God, there's some everybody's learning how to do that now. And my concern, quite frankly, is by the time I'm in the virtual groove, ballrooms will be back. And so I'm trying to figure out, well. Am I should I be pushing the virtual part, or should I just be continuing keeping in contact with clients and new producers and saying, hey, when this COVID thing is over, please keep me in mind. I'm kind of at that weird crossroads I gotcha and I'm looking for I'm actually looking for what is the right position for me. There are there are many kinds of stage managers, and the virtual thing doesn't work for all. And I don't know if I'm one of those or not. Well, well, Rob or Mimi, have either of you done any virtual stuff because, you know, it's it's so new. I mean, I'd say it's it's 6 or 8 weeks old, right? And at least when you're there and you and you're calling the show and you have a live audience, whereas whereas the virtual audience is a two dimensional flat screen, like we're we're all used to looking at and it's very, very tough to get the same kind of, you know, feedback of, you know, the timing. Yeah. Well, if I could jump in, in a sense, I mean, I haven't done anything during this pandemic, but in a sense, I've been doing these type of things for years. For me, it seems pretty much the same as calling a show. When you're interfacing from a TV truck or from a remote location. It's just, you know, it's calling screens, it's calling moves and just incorporating with where it would be a TV director, the TV team or a webcast team. So in a sense, it's skills that I've used over the years. It just means putting them now into this new format. Well, well, Mimi, I have a question. So so this ultimately it kind of between what Miles is saying and Rob was saying is it sounds like we're going to be doing these hybrid meetings going forward. So you're going to have the live audience and there's going to be a show for some, whether it's a small or large audience. And then there's going to be this broadcasting the Rob's talking about and the broadcast audience, and that's maybe going to be called by a television director. I agree, I think we will probably have some hybrids. I haven't done one either, from what I gather, talking to people that have done them, they're doing the same thing we do. Like like Rob said, we organizing people, making sure everyone knows what's coming next and just keeping track of what needs to get to the screen. Except it's not a real screen. It's a virtual screen. And making sure that that all happens at the right time. Yeah. So so I want to ask a completely different question. What's the most fun part of your job? I'm throwing this to Miles. Miles, what's the most fun? You've been doing this for a long time. Actually, the collective group here has, you know, enormous amounts of experience. But what brings you the most joy and happiness for for doing this role in your job that you've done, you know, for many years? You know, it's every show is different, every show is the same. And the I think one of the coolest things about it is, you know, you kind of get a sense of how it might go with that phone call with the producer a week before, but you really don't know because that producer, his head or her head is filled up with a thousand things at that point. And it's like they know what your punch list is as a stage manager, so they address that. But when you get on site, you actually meet the personalities and you're thinking, okay, what bag of tricks do I have to get through this technically, which is the priority? And then, you know, what do I need? How do I need to work with the crew to make all this work? I think is really. And when it all comes together, it's like, oh my God, yeah, this is really neat. It's like the Aja moment, right? Absolutely. So, Mimi, tell me, what is the most fun thing when you show up, you put your headset on and you say, go, what, what, what, what brings you the most happiness doing this, this role that you've done for many years? Same idea. I think it's the coordination of all the people and the people. It's the team. It's it's the team that you you get and you deal with. And most of them are wonderful human beings, and we enjoy being with them, which is part of the reason that the virtual thing is maybe not as much fun, because we don't get to see the people that we know. I also have a quote that I on one of the last jobs I did, we had a group called The Music Paradigm, and it's a conductor and an orchestra that come in and sit with the attendees, and they talk about what it means to be a conductor and what it means to be an orchestra. And the the quote that the conductor gave me was, the conductor coordinates the knowledge of the team. And I said, that's what we do. We coordinate the knowledge of the team. We take all of these people that know what they're doing. I don't know how to run a video switcher, but I say go and that person does it, and that feels amazing to get the whole product up. So, Rob, what brings you the most happiness? Well, for me, the most happiness comes from being able to walk into a blank ballroom, walk out, you know, three days, five days, seven days later and know you started with practically nothing. And you've made a wonderful, wonderful project that people have been able to enjoy, learn. And if all that's accomplished, you know, it's the greatest feeling in the world. I think that's a hashtag right there. So so so so back to Miles. Miles, if you had to give someone advice who said they were going to college or trade school or technical school, that that that was in the theatrical arts program or in the broadcast side, what advice would you give to them if they wanted to become a stage manager? Well, first I would tell them that they should not let their uncle give away their position in the shoe store. Wait. Yeah, but. So so you're you're really pushing them into the business. I would tell them, take every gig you possibly can, get as close to the stage manager as you possibly can. Write down every question you have, because I can tell you he's not going to have time to answer, or she's not going to have time to answer you in the moment. And then two days later, call that person and say, oh my God, I learned so much. I have so many questions. Can I buy you a cup of coffee? There isn't a stage manager I know that doesn't want to talk about him or herself. They will take that. They will take you up on your offer. The second thing and I should free coffee. It's free coffee. One of the things I've done, I guess it's called paying it forward, is I've done three of them quite successfully. Now through Google Hangout. I've I've spoken to stage management classes at universities. And oftentimes these are students that want to be stage managers. They're in a theater program at some of the best schools in the country, and they've never heard of corporate events. And the professor finds me one way or another. They put me up on a screen on a wall, and I come in and I'm very I let them direct where the class is going to go. I will talk about anything they want to talk about. I'll bring show flows, I'll bring videos, I'll bring, you know, I'll give them a top view of what corporate event stage managing is. And usually at the end of two hours, I will inevitably the next day get an email from one person that says, I don't want to do theater, I want to do this. Will you bring me on as an assistant when I graduate? And yes, I have, I have I have brought graduates on to events that you would never think it would be for a first time or as a deck manager. But I do it and it's wonderful. So, so the best thing you can do, as someone who's very experienced in the business, is to help others and transfer your knowledge and give people a start, just like people gave you all a start. Mimi, do you have you had any experience like Miles as far as mentoring anyone? Absolutely. My husband, Andy, taught at NYU for a while, and he'd have students in New York, and I'd take them on as PA assistants or deck managers, and we, you know, and they were great. And it was a wonderful thing to bring them up. I've also done what Miles has done and talked to classes. I think, you know, we're all we've all been doing this for a long time. Yeah, it's kind of time for the new generation to start moving in a little bit. So. So training the next gen is, is, is something that you all enjoy. Rob have you had that experience? Absolutely. I mean, I remember when I was young and starting out, you know, I would contact stage managers trying to get meetings or just, you know, to watch what they're doing. And I'd never get a call back. I will answer anyone any time that contacts me. You know, if I have an opportunity to bring someone on a show, I'd love to, but if not, I still will. You know, spend whatever time you know they have and talk. I mean, for me, the most important thing is to let them know you got to listen and learn. Don't walk in the door coming out of school or something like that, saying, you know, I know it all. Just, you know, we all, we all learned from people who are a hell of a lot better than us. And I'm still learning from people who are a hell of a lot better than us and just have to go forward and keep that knowledge base going, you know? You know what? I will say this, that all three of you to be this successful as a stage manager, show caller, the one thing you have to have is impeccable timing. You have to be able to make sure your timing is good so that what would that happen? Timing. Timing, Rob. Timing timing timing. But but the one thing sometimes when a show just goes right, I think people don't necessarily appreciate how amazing a show and how important stage managers really can make the show or break the show. If you get someone who lacks experience or doesn't have that, great timing. Yeah, but bottom line, I know for I know for myself that when a show comes off exactly the way you want it to be, and I'm never happy with the way it comes off because I always think I could be better, but just doing it that way is just a it's a great feeling and you just have to keep trying and pushing and trying to do it better. Each time I get from all three of you this kind of passion inside all of you, it's about delivering this incredible show and you are at the helm driving, and it's got to be a great feeling when the show, the curtains close and the audience starts to walk out and you thank the crew and, you know, there's a sense of accomplishment, that your efforts have been realized and you've produced this incredible outcome. And I want to thank all three of you for joining me today. You're all amazing. And if anything, what you've done for me today is to really reiterate the purpose for the stage manager and how the thousands of shows that we've worked on that they just don't go automatically. There's just not an auto button, really involves the kind of hands on situational awareness, timing components of great stage managers. And I applaud all of you for all the different work that we've done together in our industry over many years, and I hope that people that are listening to this can truly appreciate the real experience that's coming out of all of you. So thank you again for joining us. And and next time, make sure you get a very experienced, competent stage manager like Miles, like Rob, like Mimi. You all have a great day. Thank you all. Thanks. Thank you, Les. Thank you, Les. Good to see you guys. Today I spoke to three amazing stage managers that all are professionals in their craft. And what I learned today was, you know, you really have to have great timing. You have to make sure you deliver this show and you keep everyone moving in the right direction. Miles, Rob, and Mimi are just an excellent example of true professionals that have been in our industry, and they work diligently every day to make sure to deliver a great show. This is Les Goldberg and The Road Ahead.